Field Crops Webinar Series - Managing Plant Parasitic Nematodes
February 26, 2018
MSU Extension Field Crops Webinar Series
Managing Plant Parasitic Nematodes in Corn and Soybean
Dr. Marisol Quintanilla
One last time a good evening everybody welcome to the session second session or embassy extension field crops Robin or series for twenty eight. Tonight we're going to be hearing about mention Clint curse of the new codes with Dr Murray it's all in the new year our new tone specialist with us you know and we'll go ahead and turn it over to her OK So let me get started. Hello everybody am excited to to to talk to you guys today I wish I could see your faces and. My name is Mary so and a mini You look like a mythologist from Michigan State University I started about a year ago and today we're going to talk about. Managing plan three Civic Mema taught in points and soybeans. So an outline of what we're going to talk about today first we're going to a short outline an introduction to me and my team and then we'll talk about work in corn in our current trials and corn soybean and then we'll talk about the national soybean says nematode resistance coalition and and in general will cover quite a bit of details on soybean systemic toad which is a serious nematode problem in Michigan and in the United States so in an introduction to the team like I said I started about a year ago I think my master sent Ph D. at Michigan State under George Birch sport bird has been then the mythologists at Michigan State for more than forty years that my MASTERS and P.H.D. with him I think grew up on a farm I grew up in a large farm in Chile we produced table grapes to export for the United States and to Europe. But don't worry though grapes are export it when here is winter and spring so no U.S. troops no competition. And so I grew up on a farm and we also grow so I've been and corn and some vegetables for the local Chilean market so we only export. And. After I finish my MASTERS and P.H.D. I worked for a while in the Pacific Islands they worked in the Northern Mariana Islands for a while and I thought there was going to be a group join us and that you are please send texts and from from there and then I work for a while in Hawaii and now I'm back in in Michigan I have a nice group Lee I are a good technician that has been very useful Jeff shoemaker is stuck to Bert's master student and is focusing on on and on mainly soybeans He's that the bread master city Christie is my technician I have a couple of undergrads and one and one master student of myself of my own family Koch who focuses on potatoes and Justin just in case you're I think you're working on the inside beans Actually I have seven commodity groups so corn soybeans what Tadros sugar beet. Best of both fruits and ornamental Yeah so I think that sums up pretty much all crops in Michigan just to make it short so to start in corn we have we have planned some point trials funded by corn marketing. That corn marketing program of Michigan they funded mainly a survey in wish you will survey because one nematodes in Michigan. In all the Lower Peninsula so we will ask extension agents to help us connect to corn farm growers some open ear open to sampling or find me are interested and the Me Maybe is to evaluate where are the nematode problems and corn and I never thought a significant problem in corn in Michigan not a lot of work has been done and nematodes in corn in Michigan besides that it will do some green house trial in which we will you not accumulate corn plants in pots in the greenhouse with no numbers of nematodes in order to. So have easy year calculation of what's the percentage of the yield that beast particular now at the thirty Q. from you will also test a couple products from companies seek treatment for nematode Contro and M. and in Michigan some of the common nematode are like or need on them OTOH if you do have it it can have drastic effects lesion Mehmet thought hope the Lyme most and a few others so so being so beam has a couple of nematodes that are very serious but nothing can beat so being systemic So we have a couple of projects and so being systemic toward one is so being systemic told resistant management and we'll have rotations rotating different sources of resistance which will be covering in more detail. Checking out the effectiveness of menorahs on an reduction of of soaking systemic toad product trials testing some product and working with the soybean system at the resistance nationwide core Lisha So eight coalition the six to educate farmers in the United States on how to manage their resistance that this so being so Been system a third is. Developing. So that we can still use the phrase this resistant rabies that have been that have increased significantly have increased yield under Soviet system at the pressure so in the U.S. So besides Number two it is the number one pest according to several publications so being systemic don't is number one in the world it ranks number two with rusty number one but in in the U.S. rust this is not a significant problem but. For it's incredible that so be systemic to it is either number one or number two so it is a serious problem and it's costing. Significantly it's costing loss of yield. So here you can see a field and you can see a spot that is empty right there that is areas that have high populations of soybean systemic Tode nematodes are never even be distributed are rarely even fully distributed in the field they will be kind of patchy they like sand these spots and also they don't mow very far on their own so wherever you are regionally introduced it was soil with machine the population kind of moved it from that area and of course it will be more with the with the tiller the plant there all that that moves soil but you will have this hot patches so we can see here in this light you can see if you have if you have severe symptoms of so being systemic damage and you plan to resist and Brady versus a susceptible you can get about half of the yield loss when you can actually see the damage when you cannot see the damage when their population density is not the pressure is not as high you will still get a significant reduction of maybe ten to twenty percent and this so even says nematode numbers will increase significantly only if you plan to susceptible variety so regarding some trials that we're doing we have a trial here in Michigan in wish we will rotate different sources of resistance in order to evaluate how these nematodes are developing resistance to either the most common Peate eight seven eight source of resistance which is what most of you guys grow. And compare it to be a day seven a date back to back to several years or an alto I'll turn a being created a seven eight eight with the king source of resistance and alternating P.S.A. seven a day with susceptible and became plantin susceptible back to back receptor The idea is to evaluate what are these different Brooke what are these what is the best rotation in order to reduce the risk system development in the nematodes and this trial already began in two thousand and seventeen and will continue this year and two thousand a team and hopefully Fred least two one years after that. So this is the results for the first year of the trial in two thousand and seventeen we can see that we the Eastend for the picking source of resistant became less illegal as the second bar graph P.-I is that the ID seventy eight and the fourth bar stands for PH it seven a bit less in the room and you can see yield in actually Bush of Acre and it's close to sixty and they're all pretty much the same what they're sure could there's a couple reasons why all the yields here look the same one one of the reasons is that this farmer and this particular farmer has sowed insists nematode but has been managing it very well. Recently in the last few years. The year before I plant that this trial he planted up the king real source of resistance and previous to that he planted a non host which was corn and previous to that he planted a B. eight seven eight eight so he's alternating with non host and he's alternating source of resistance so he's keeping the memory toads in there. He's keeping them Memoto it's fighting having a hard time they're having a hard time reproducing under such conditions so. Also we can see here is that the picking source of resistant yield that just the swellest the P eight seventy eight which is bedding Porton to bring out because one of the reasons why picking or other sources a resistance have not been plant is that they have not yield this that this factor there is already some companies that have been relevant became breeding lines that can yield equally to their Ph eight seven a day parade so that's good news so here's a little bit more results from the same trials we can see in in the graph here with the lines. You can see it's interesting that. The male line which is the grade line is much lower than. It's much lower than the orange line which is the jaw announced that would likely become the mouth so or or even become become males but you can see that the male side dominating even that you are now so what is happening here what is happening east that. That the these nematodes are not prospering very well there they are they are fighting the plant has resisted ants and that the females are not able to become large they're not able to to produce a good abs ring so what they're doing is producing a lot of male so that there's more sexual reproduction so that they can increase genetic diversity so some of their offspring can break this recess that's so you're going see here. Forward. Hip root not Nemat I mean the SO been systemic to a juvenile You can see that the picking source of resistance was significantly higher still very low only three point six per one hundred sixty six so you but significantly higher than the P.I. day seven eight and why is because in two thousand and sixteen he planned to picking So just two years I believe to do to your scenario roll of taking it's already developing a small population of resistant nematodes so planting the same variety back to back will quickly develop resistance another trial that we're doing here we did is switch it in men were a grower is interested what effect does applying chicken manure have on soybean says no matter what he actually applies chicken manure when he grows corn obviously because so Big Sis never I mean so used to not really. Doing their years are not significantly crew to improve much with nitrogen at. Applications because they can fix their own nitrogen but corn obviously needs nitrogen fertilization So what this chicken manure do to save the system but that's when it's applied to corn with and see that control without the control without the chick the chicken manure we have more Nemat so Mrs nematodes and in the manure we have unless the difference was not significant with ninety five percent confidence but we can say that with ninety percent confidence so I think if I repeat this have a few more replications and maybe increase the tonnage in this case it was two tonnes Maybe if I increase it a bit we can get to say what we can say this with ninety five percent confidence but of course we need to test this again I'm I am not I'm not saying for sure that this is making a difference but it seems like it might be making a difference personally if the sense of what it is about the Manoora of other types in the early cattle Nur would have the same effect on. What might my next like kind of coverage that this is actually an potatoes but because I thought that that question would come up I thought the slide might be useful we testing we are testing different kinds of compost that manure. One the second compost is half chicken manure half and half half dairy manure have chicken manure and it has a few additives to it including gypsum and the first the first compost system mainly just very men were and then we have chicken manure and we can see that the second compost significantly reduced nematode even similar to an effective No Madison so. What is happening here I am not sure this was definitely this thinking is one I'm thinking because the combination of chicken manure cow manure and the gypsum. That. The gases that it was producing the chemical. Must have been toxic to the nematodes the. The bio control when you feed the beneficial for you know you you get increasing number of bacteria I mean there's number of potential. Reasons here why this could be happening but there's also quite a bit of research saying that manure some compost do not have affect the nematodes of some some some research shows that it does and some research shows that it doesn't and here you can see that some of my compost work and some do not so the consistency there bare is not you know it's not very high so we need to research what is actually making that difference and we are trying to evaluate this and CNS also susceptible ph changes rate don't kill it yeah. Alkaline soil is correct that's right that's right so there could be an effect because of the PH The amount of the amount of ammonium released from some of this compost if you many some of these minority many times if you have a big pile of chicken manure you notice that a lot of the weeds underneath will be dead and they will not grow for a while you might like they said I came from a family farm and we permanently have a pile of chicken manure that we use for fertilizing are being. And that area will not have weeds for a while everything will be dead so in high quantities it could be a bias say you know it kills everything including plants. Of course you know in high quantities you know it also produce all kinds of problem including too much phosphorus that you know that goes above the regulated quantities so we're trying to find the effect of the fact that those that John was asking well maybe that nitrogen content of the different compost menorahs be part of the equation there sounds like it's another thing to just you know that's right the nitrogen come content that would be a good a good thing to rally and we're going to we're going to by the way this is a little bit deeper This is our first this is my first year here at Michigan State in this job and we're going to try to evaluate this deeper and I have a grad student working full time on this so it's up. So the next and the next one is. Like they said we're working on rotating recess and ready for working on menorahs and also we're doing product trials mainly on C C treatments we're testing them a strike now my strike new product by Monsanto that was going to be released this year but I think they had some problem with skinny retaliations but it will likely be released next year Act I mean according to Monsanto that they told me that he will likely be approved for next year so we want to we have a plan to test this also by U.S.T. it's also a C. treatment and evil as you know illegal evil seems to be very effective for side in such. Sudden Death Syndrome It's a fungal disease and because it's both a fungicide and then the maddest say so and they're and they're as under S.T.'s pressure really will seems to be quite effective for nematodes it might protect them from nematodes and that first they said just the low sit those switches slow. And the number of nematodes at the end at harvest time we have not found much difference at the and at the end season but there seems to be at least a five five percent yield increase in some trials so but when S.T.S. is there it's making a significant difference in increasing yield and that's not my research mainly. My and and other people's research. Like Marty Childers So so let's talk about so he insists nematode the problem management strategies and resistant management so you can see here the life cycle you're going to see a picture here of so even systemic took life cycle let's start here with the female we have a female race here and large female she looks fat and round kind of like a lemon and the male looks like a skinny where. After meeting of the female will produce eggs the female will have its head stuck inside the rote feeding on any large cells but the the plant specially has developed to feed this nematode when you have this nematode the plant this no longer working for you it's kind of working for the member to which you probably don't want. So the female will produce like two hundred eighty at a time and laid these eggs in the soil those acts will hatch and go to infect your neighboring roots neighboring. At the end of the season this female will die but her body becomes a case a special cyst and inside her body they will be two hundred two hundred fifty eggs and those eggs are protected for years they can be without a host without So being for ten years or more they are very well protected. Well once those eggs come out once they hatch they come out as once the enter the plant they enter the route. The route develops the special and large feeding cells the female starts becoming larger and larger and the cycle continues so this is kind of how it looks in the root then you they see this picture very well. Those ball straight the big balls actually those are the nitrogen nodules So those are good ones this will be systemic the small white dots that looks like sand grains. So they're much smaller than the nitrogen nodules and they're much whiter than one thousand nodules if you crush them bilby kind of pinkish know the soybean systemic toad will be like white balls can't so this is how they will look in the root OK So let's talk about how they increase let's say in the beginning of the season you just plant that you're soybeans and you start with one hundred exist if not hundred ccs of soy and you passed the season and tall and towards the end of the season when it's time to harvest you'll end up with nineteen thousand two hundred fifty eggs because you know you can have lots of kids when you can have two hundred fifty at a time right. Citroen hundred fifty had a term and then they might you're pretty quickly and they grew to have two hundred fifty kids you know after I've two while of that you can have ten so grand kids so what's happening here is that the situation can spiral out of control very quickly so the point is. A seven it used to be very very effective in controlling So be systemic to it and it still is but what is happening is because most farmers most growers are only planting this they're only planting. P. eighty seven it is the nematodes are developing their systems their offspring obviously the once the babies that the worms that are able to reproduce and that's again are the ones that get to reproduce not go to the next generation and have more so what happens is that the wants are able to reproduce and the P. eight seventy eight get to have kids with that same genetic. That same genetic information so what happens is that as time goes by more and more of this nematodes are able to break that resistance and Rep reduce when you're sleeping so by now. We're losing about fourteen bushels per acre in P. eight seven a day because. The majority of the snow Matilde start beginning to reproduce in ph it serenading so so we can see here and in one thousand nine hundred fifty force soybean system I took was introduced by the way so Vince's nematode is not from the US it's from Asia neither same incitements came from Asia but I guess whoever brought the sickness probably brought the nematode. And probably brought it with the sole and everything brought a plane in a pot I don't know but. So you can see the same in Cessna moto. Star was discovered in one nine hundred fifty four. And look look now two thousand and seventeen that nematode has gotten around then you think so it's really has gotten around so nematodes are not very big and they don't move very far like in their whole lifetime don't move like one yard that's right one meter three feet not very far. So how do you think it has gotten that far how do you think that's got to pretty much cover half of the US they still book I wish I could see your faces. Thanks to us thanks to farmers with plant. With machinery with trial X. whatever is moving soil whatever small ring soil is moving these nematodes So if you do not have it you can't keep it out by following good sanitation practices and if you are sharing machinery washing the machinery before you put it in your farm it's a good idea just pressure washing with will do a very good if you're removing the soil you're removing the limits of so here in this graph you can see Michigan right here do I see Michigan so you can see a percentage there in Michigan assessed ninety four percent what does that number mean sadly it means that ninety four percent of the population of the soybean systemic taught populations in Michigan are able to reproduce on ph eight seven A Day In other words not a foot percent it's pretty close to one hundred so you can assume that you are fine if you have soybean sister nematode that your in your farm those nematodes I beginning to reproduce in P.R. eighty seven eighty and I guessed mission and it's almost a champion for that only second to Ohio that is ninety six percent. So what are some recommendations some things that you can do one test you have fields and know your numbers so Michigan so been promotion for me the community with the SO being check off dollars covers your costs if you send your your samples to the I miss you back Gnostic not they can't tell you the quantity of your demo the student says nematode And also they can tell you whether they're able to reproduce on the variety that you are planting a plant a planning to plant. So know your field and if you don't have so he says never to you can try to keep it out another thing you can rotate recess and right so once you have this nematode rotating resistant variety system so source of resistance if you are You simpy eighty seven eighty eight looking to you seen a picking for rotation Sadly there's not too many commercial options but rotating resistant variety Cis one thing that you can do to keep the nematodes on their toes and at least. Keep them fighting so that they have to struggle to develop resistance once they get used to one you seen another it's like war you just use a different strategy if you if you go to war and you'll always used the same strategy it's almost for sure that the enemy will figure it out and win so change strategy other thing is to rotate with non host planting after soybean planting a year of horn a week or any any none coast which is pretty easy because the only holes for so missis nematode are pretty much to make you so if you look if you if you just avoid planting soybeans dried being sent any other legumes any other thing that you rotate with you'll be fine so rotating with a non host reduces number significantly and I would think if you have high numbers consider using a C. treatment no matter. Your soul John was asking if I'm so texture comes into play with the C N populations of heavier white souls or more more prone Assyria Yes John is right. Sandy soils tend to have much higher numbers of soybean systemic to not only so he says nematode many other nematodes tend to be higher in in in in maybe coursers soils sand there and there's ph also seems to play a role and also besides number spin higher the plants are a little bit more susceptible because they will they will have more drought as the nematodes are getting all the water and getting all the nutrients so they'll be more it will look like no tree and the fishes see and also drought and that those fellows will hold less nutritious and hold less water too so there's a compounding factor but not all numbers tend to be higher in the extend the spots so you can see here. There's different sources for resistance the most common as the I seventy eight the second list that one and the second most common is that they keep the P.I. five four eight four zero two now the picking there is for a beast that are just equally yielding well yielding S.T.P.I. eighty seven eighty many of the other sources a resistance have not been commercially released or not successful sex the sex successfully develop because of challenges of having. Producing acceptable yields they will have lower yields and this makes sense. Having a good defense strategy takes energy so the plant that is very well defended against So be systemic toat might put less priority in actually producing So you've been part OK so. But that the key is if farmers are demanding it if they understand that they need more varieties in order to fight this problem and prevent the train wreck of the eight seventy eight not to be able to be used at all. Farmers can demand this of the companies and their seat salesman and that that pressure will then make them see companies to develop other sources of resistance there so Clyde is wondering if Ford's like games like yourself and Clover are also a holes for us. Could be I am not one hundred percent sure it is likely since they are leg Young's I have not heard them to be fantastic host but I am not sure I would have to look into that some more if you're having serious soaking systemic problem. Looking into non legumes might be important and you can also send if you have more questions about that you can send me an email and I will do some more investigation to see how good of a host they are the site do not know right now you guys have excellent questions thank you very much. So finally I want to acknowledge that the people that have made this research possible machine and so be promotion Committee has funded much of this work corn marketing committee is marketing it's funding the corn the current corn soybean I mean the corn nematode workin and survey I miss you AG bio research that funds part of the salaries and the other seven commodity groups that have Jim band that together to have and the Matal just. And of course all my group applied Nematollahi and that and the M.S. you bake Gnostic Nat specially that Emma tell you so do you have any questions and the other questions thank you Mary so I don't see any questions right now but what we can do is continue to allow people to answer their questions. So this is this is your file so I don't have any any further sites to share so we can that's. Cool so I will go ahead and bring up information for valuation while we we've got any other questions or come. I can't I can't see that question so you can you have to let them know it to me now I can see the question OK where they said when you're sharing your toolbar goes up they're going to hide Jess right because they disappear. OK So continue to feel free to enter questions a him for murder so I will certainly been into Erbil a ration information in the meantime. See one problem can you see on your screen reversal Why are nematode only attracted to Luke two to legumes OK A. No nematodes are attracted to many different crops but there's many different types of them Atos in this case we're just talking about soil being systemic though so being systemic toad it's a very. It's very specialized on so it being it has been living with so been for thousands of years and in Asia and this very special license so it means it communicates chemically with the soybean plant to make it this special home for it there is many add there nematodes multiple nematodes that feed on me and many other crops like root lesion nematode will feed on so be on corn on vegetables on potato or on everything root not nematode it's a very serious nematode that will feed on all kinds of crops but not on grasses. There's stagger nematode there's core needle nematode that likes corn but it won't feed on soybeans really so there is there are several different types of nematodes that specialize in different crops or different groups of crops so be systemic So it's a very serious nematode and it's specialize in so it means but it can also reproduce in similar plants like other legumes specially dry being said Best pretty well and they've been next when do you have any idea how effect the corn soybean yearly rotation isn't controlling the nematode maybe numbers yes. The population goes down I think like about thirty to forty percent I have it and nest like if by the first year that you plant corn this subsequent years that change just less because the nematodes will beyond assist and they are in the protect that space so in that first year that first year after soybean they're the most vulnerable to any kind of control after that they're kind of in this protect that cyst and hard to control them after that so the nematodes go down if you it's being systemic tote will go down if you plant corn or any non host corn radishes. Potato. We anything pretty much except dry beans you know or or other other legumes you have to be careful with some of these cover crops that might be legumes. Like out the vet sure some of those things might be good host the cover cup like radishes effect Memet the populations the answer is yes and no the answer is yes for some nematode and a not hurt others for so being systemic Toad of course they would significantly reduce the population because they're not hoaxed for root not nematode radishes tend to be very good host so radishes radishes are a little bit complex because it's very dependent on varieties some varieties of radishes. Fantastic host of like root not nematode And for those who plant. Sugar beet some of them can be excellent host for sugar beets just nematode almost better host than the sugar beet itself but there are some there are some radish variety such as defend their Adagio and a couple there's actually in them at the goes in and feed because that Norse a good host but it's not able to form that feeding site they're not able to represent they're not able to successfully form that feeding site so there are trap crop nematode goes in there and it's not able to produce it reduces population but that's for sure meat systemic but this is not persuade Mrs number that this is sugar beets. And it will this will not happen with other nematode so with nematode. It's important to know which nematode you're dealing with and what crop you want to plant so if they tell you that radishes it'll solve your nematode problem is that could be true or false depending on what nematode they're talking about and what for idea of radish they're telling you to plant so it is variety dependent and the crop the pen that doesn't make sense OK. Will cold winters have any effect on the population not really because the nematodes that are here are already very adapted to cold winters so being says no matter how good lesion nematodes Northern Rock not nematode can do pretty well in the winter I'm sure some will them will die in that and that surface but. Some nematodes are able to survive freezing and some will go deeper in the soil were it's not frozen so. So no cold winter will not be a solution for you especially if you have snow cover but no cold weather will not control for sure if you had if you if you got some tropical Memet those that come here by accident they will not go well but these nematodes are that. There is one other question in the chat from quick Craig is a better tool the ground in the fall or leave the idle talk screen you have to have seen soybeans in terms of the mental control. Well. Craig is right in that Tillis can have an effect on nematodes. But it's kind of the pending on several things if to me it's done when the temperature is hot and the soil is very dry it could have a reduction if the soul is pretty morning and temperature is cool it will be less dehydration nematodes are aquatic animals so they they swim so and their hot conditions like I live in white before this and if we kill the soil in hot dry B. will get like a thirty percent reduction of nematodes that it's unlikely to happen in Michigan consistency consistently because of demotion the soil the lower temperatures. To which can have a significant effect on larger nematodes like Baghran nematodes or cornmeal nematodes and part because you know they're there they're larger the longer and they're more susceptible to getting cut or damaged. When would it be better to tell I don't really know I don't I think Jill is just not something that will reduce nematodes first that will eliminate nematodes per se in my have some effect under certain conditions under more stressful conditions like dry. Soil like when you see sometimes the potato fields and they'll be very dry very heartened that soil looks all powdery you know it's very coarse soil and and those conditions it will be stressful they'll be some nematode there so not sure which one would better fall or spring that sure for them at their control. So there's like that's it for the question but I have two more questions for you are you going to cut a line CONAN No question about it six zero zero plus the message plus when the one question about Small Talk sure in your corner OK that's that's a good question so is there a ground treatment that could help the answer is yes there are some things that would help quite a bit the problem is the profitability of some of these treatments some of this very. Crops that are very valuable in other words a lot of profit per acre. Will do for me geisha fumigation is usually about three thousand dollars per acre so yeah a few so that it's not that it's not something that would work with with field crops generally. There is some new magnet sites also that can be applied in furrow that can have an effect that can have a reduction generally because so being systemic toad is so persistent it will not eliminate them but some there's some seed treatment that matters sites that come in the seat that might be a better economic option since it's not an extra passes you know it comes together with the seat and there are some things that could be sprayed in furrow that could be you know maybe as you apply and some fungicide that also might work we're evaluating those kind of things not of these C. treatments so far are a silver bullet they might be creased the numbers especially in the Will seems to be pretty good for S.T.S. this syndrome. Yeah and. So the next question how does a SO B. insist nematode like sandy soil if they're a quiet. Look question good question no one would question. A nematode are they are quite it becomes a move in the surface of the sander or the soil in that water surface and that. Water film will move helps women that water film. Why do they like sandy soils couple things I think it might be a little bit easier for them to move around if you have very dense today soils you have to think this worms are swimming in between so Party will cease to dance or to compact it might be hard for them to move around to breed if there's low oxygen conditions you know and. That might be that might be the case also. There I think you might see that the plant this also more susceptible you notice the damage a lot more in sandy soils because the plant will be hydrate faster and you have also the nutrient it will hold that that's what holds us nutrients so you'll see the effects of the nematodes much better and the sandy soil OK thank you for the great women I enjoy your humor and listening to you that's so sweet John thank you very much so with that we are seventeen after eight solo projects I think you're on for hanging around but I believe that's all we have tonight I want to say one more thank you not to Dr Murray it's all going to nuance or Joining us ridgelines what we are is wonderful really nice to be rich and.