Setting up Online Sales for Your Farm
February 18, 2021
For the sake of time, and I think most of our participants are back. So that's good. Welcome to our last session of the evening. This is the MI AG ideas to grow with conference for those who are just joining us. My name is Mariel Borgman. I'm a community food systems educator with Michigan State University Extension. And I'm really excited to welcome you to our session tonight about how to set up an online store for your farm products. And I am going to be introducing our speakers in just a moment. But before we get started, we want to show a quick video for you all. I'm just We're doing a little short videos which you've probably seen if you've been participating in other sessions. And this one I have for you tonight is about farm food safety. So you'll get that video pulled up. Right? And hopefully it will play for us. Thinking, Erika, hey, we're on a pro to safety road trip. Do you want to join us? Share sweet happen. Ooh, produce safety education. That looks fun. If you are new to farming or I've never attended a farm food safety training. A good first step is to take some time to learn about Produce Safety, good agricultural practices and the Food Safety Modernization Act, produce safety rule. The MSU Extension agrifood safety website has videos and other training materials to get you started. Hey, did That's a risk assessment. Now that sounds exciting. Want to stop, share. You don't have to be a thrill seeker to make this next step. Now that you have a background in farm produce safety concepts, the next step is to apply them to your farm. The Michigan produce safety risk assessment is a free and confidential program delivered by trained produce safety technicians around the state. Once you have identified your farms food safety risks, the next step is to write policies and procedures for how you will address these risks. It's a good idea to have a written food safety plan. Don't worry, there are templates and resources available to guide you on the MSU Extension agrifood safety website. Wow, look at all the cars at that place. That definitely looks like a party. Let's stop in to see what everyone is up to. The Food Safety Modernization Act. Produce safety rule includes a set of regulations that apply to fresh produce growers. If you are covered under the rule, at least one individual from your farm must complete a FISMA produce 800 grower training course, such as those offered for free by Michigan State University Extension and the Michigan on farm produce safety team. Hey, do you recognize that car pulling in the driveway? They look friendly. Oh, that's your friends from the Michigan on farm produce safety team. I bet they're here to help you with your on-prem readiness review. On-farm readiness reviews are OF are ours are low pressure. They are free, voluntary, and confidential. Designed to help fresh produce growers feel prepared and ready for meeting the FISMA produce saved her role requirements. A small team of local produce safety technicians and MSU extension educators will help you bring your produce safety plans to life and assess any produce safety risks that might exist by walking around your farm and discussing your current practices and plants. Some buyers may require you to obtain a third party food safety certification if your buyer requires USDA gap certification, the Michigan group gap network is an option to achieve USDA gap certification in a supportive educational environment. To learn more, you can go to MI Group, Gap.com. Good day. It's good to be home. But that was an awesome trip. Thank so much for coming along with me. Whoops. Hey, we're gonna produce over h cubed and an evil side that we don't need to hear that twice. All right, so thank you. And if you are interested in learning more about food safety, please visit the MSU Extension website and search for food safety in that chat function. Okay, so now let's jump into today's presentation. We have three of folks joining us tonight to present on this topic. So we have my colleague from michigan State University community food system team, Abigail Harper. We also have Alex Clausewitz from take the taste, the local deference. And we have key sub B. Johnson from the University of Michigan sustainable food systems initiative at Pisa as also the online marketplace administrator for D town and oakland avenue urban farmers marketplace. So I am going to turn it over to the team to share their presentation with you. And we're working on getting their videos connected as well. So thanks for your patients there. All right. Well, I'm kicking it off. So hopefully by the time the other to figure out their videos, we'll we'll have time to see them as well. So hi everybody. I'm Abby Harper. As Mariel shared. I am community food systems educator base in mid Michigan. And I also want to give a shout out to Jake Earhart, who's, who's our colleague as well, who helped pull together this presentation as well. All of us on this call are kind of a combination of organizations. We are, I obviously am from MSU Extension and we have a whole host of other collaborators represented here. So just want to make sure everybody's recognize there. So we want to get started first. Just do Anna who's in the room. So if you are able to type into the chat and just introduce yourself with your name and maybe your county or something geographically that helps us place you, as well as maybe more important than your firm name is, what kind of stuff you're producing. I know that this is during the the animal ag track, but I don't think we just have analog producers. So do they have the capacity to chat Mariel? They do. Okay, so go ahead and type in the chat and just let us know who's here, where you're coming from. What kind of stuff you're Celan. And I see qis and Alex are with us now tooth that's grave. High, right? We got land and lavender me and veggies. Beef, flower. Flowers, not flower. Produce. Okay, good. So we've got a combination of people in the room could just kinda wanna make sure we're covering all the bases. Beef and pigs. Awesome. So what we're really thinking about, what this presentation is around that direct-to-consumer marketing piece. So if you're in those spaces where you've relied on farmer's market sales or more of those kind of direct engagement. What we've seen in the last year With COVID, limiting the ways we're able to interact directly is that a lot of farms have been interested in moving towards online platforms to help both limit their exposure to people from a public health aspect. And also just finding that it has streamlined the ability to kind of manage their inventory and, and be a little bit more predictable in terms of sales. So as we move through today, we want to kind of just frame it as we're going to be talking about kind of two different trains of technology. The first is using tools, using technology that allows you to help manage some online ordering and manage some customer's ability to kinda like pick and choose ahead of time. But those, those systems are still managing the distribution and the payments via the standard channels. Whether that be a farm stand, whether it's exchanging at farmers markets and using some of those traditional either check, cash, Venmo, PayPal online payments. That one. We're going to talk briefly about that, but we're going to spend more time talking about leveraging online sales platform. So ones that might be higher, more tech, a higher learning curve maybe. But that allow you to manage some of that ordering and payments in a virtual environment as well as do some of that inventory management. So I see folks come in from all over. It's good to have you all with us kind of all over the state. So great. We got some some you prefer isn't there to a recent I heard today that we have more snow downstate than upstate, so I feel like I can identify with you folks now. Well, that so as I mentioned, we're here to talk about online sales. And before we do that, I'm going to pass it over to Keith, who's going to talk a little bit about what we mean when we talk about technology. You guys, when we talk about technical systems, Hey, you guys produce food that sustains us and sustained in his stewardship of the Earth and non-humans takes a lot of work effort and resilience. So there's technical assistance that helps form of navigate this type scale and practice. And a lot of you are familiar with it. You may be part of organisation. You may work with extension office or you may work with the USDA. And they may give you some legal support, financial support, structural support. Help you understand more about your water and soil. What we're here to talk about something very specific. We're going to talk about direct sales, software platforms. You can go. Okay, so a little history here so everybody can kind of get their minds to understand a little bit. E-commerce has been around forever. Being CompuServe started in 1969, helping us kinda connect things together with the internet. But the real e-comm are real. But the first e-commerce really started in 1982 with Boston computer exchange. And e-commerce is just like the buying and selling of goods on the Internet, right? But then it started going into a different space, which we call online ordering systems we get, which gave us a little bit more capacity to track sales orders and inventory fulfillment as we know it. But what we know about direct sales, I really, this is what we know about direct sales today sought their software platform, this array that support direct sales to consumers, specifically designed for farmers and producers. Now, this isn't, direct sales, isn't a new concept. Because if we want to take it back further to 980 2019 69. It was a black man, a black author, horticulturists and professor at Tuskegee call Booker T What the **** created the clientele membership club, what we call the complete community supported Ag of culture or pick your own. And it was starting, it was small and mid-size farms. And it was for people to kind of actually come, figure out what to work with small farms to say, Hey, this is what we want to buy from you and we would package it up. So the concept with direct sales. Oh, what are the new technology using? So we just wanted to kinda give you some historical base. So we will see so overwhelming. We try and figure out what works for you. You can go to the next line. So we're going to spend the bulk of the presentation talking about some of those higher entry point and my hair entry point. We made like sort of that greater learning curve. But we did want to pay a nod because we have all worked with a lot of farmers who have found an incredible upgrade and their ability to just kinda manage inventory by engaging with some of these low entry points of technology, which generally looks like a combination of managing a Google form to do online orders along with web based payment. What's the term payment capturing systems such as Venmo or PayPal or cash app that allows folks to kind of manage orders through a Google form. Folks can submit orders. You can do some pretty light tracking of inventory and keeping track of what's being ordered. It's, it's a really good tool if you haven't done a lot of kind of tracking what your sales are yet to be able to easily kind of take a step in that direction without necessarily having to invest a lot of time or money and setting up a brand new platform. One of the things that we've seen throughout the last year is a lot of folks choosing a platform, using it for a little while and then realizing it's not right for them and having to start over with a different one. So our goal today is to really help you think through what are your needs from an online platform to help make a more informed decision that first time so that there's not a learning curve that you have to then have another learning curve. So this is kind of one of those low learning curves that you can try and dabble with. If, if, if it seems like too big of a jump to jump to some of those costs. More expensive. Payment platform and sales platforms. They do allow for a lot of customer flexibility. You can create Google Forms in ways that allow customers to be more. Selective or specified. And then it, like I said, it just really takes a minimal time commitment. The benefit is that you're not exchanging money in person necessarily. You can find ways to do drop-offs and payment online. So it still allows for some of that ability to kind of adapt to circumstances and be a little bit more remote in your sales. Also allows you that ability, like I said, to do moral inventory tracking to see what kind of product spokes are most interested in, have a record of that. And then also is a pretty low point of entry in terms of costs. There's not costs associated with using any of these platforms. And it's a pretty kind of open, open software choice. And we did before we get into some of the more technical aspects of online sales platform as we just did just want to pay a nod to what this looks like for Cottage foods. I'm assuming most of you on on this call might be familiar with cottage foods, but they refer to non potentially hazardous foods that don't necessarily require time or temperature control for safety. So there are things that you can control pretty well for safety even in a home kitchen. And there's a threshold limit for the dollar value and annual sales in order to qualify as a cottage food. It typically applies to things like baked goods, jams. Some of those things you produce in your home kitchen that don't have a high risk of foodborne illness. And traditionally, there's the, the MDRD law around cottage foods is that the exchange must happen in person so that you can't necessarily sell. The buyer and the seller have to be in contact to exchange. So what's happened in the last year is, um, guards recognize more of a need for these online ways of exchanging, of ordering to reduce kind of person to person contact during COVID. And so their current interpretation of the cottage food law allows for the online sales and exchange of payment. You can use PayPal Cash App. You can use all of these platforms that we're going to be talking about. But that the in-person exchange of goods is the qualifying criteria. So a lot of farmers who do cottage foods are doing the Exchange Online of money and then doing in-person deliveries and drop-offs either at their standard farmer's market channels or what have you. And that allows for the ability to be a little bit more streamlined in your farmers market sales and also still staying in line with that Cottage Food law. So I'm going to kick it off here as we start talking about some of the options available for online sales. And actually before we do this, I'm just going to launch a quick poll. So you'll see two questions come up. And this is just to help us get a sense of where everyone in the room is. I meant to do one of these earlier. But the first question is, where are you at with your online sales? So what, what level of You know, commitment have you made to an online sales platform already? So if you can just take a minute to answer that one. And then we'll have another poll and a little bit for you to answer as well. So seems like most of you are just starting to think about it. So that's really great for us to know because our goal is to really help you think about what are the things that are important for your farm to capture and an online sales platform and help you make the right decision at the start. We've got some that are considering a few options. Maybe I've started to do some of that research, but not necessarily landed on one. And so far we don't have anyone who loves or hates their online platform. And we have the hashtag, it's complicated and they're just because we know sometimes, you know, It's not totally Either or sometimes you land and one that you feel pretty good about. And sometimes sometimes you don't and sometimes it's in the middle. Okay. So well and that there that's helpful for us to know. So with that, I'm going to pass it off to Giza. Can re, re inc, you put a poll. So thank you guys for sharing that information. So in the chat, tell us, weren't reaping that come to mind when you see the word online sales. We'll want to share. Stressful, easy time. Order prediction is right. Okay, All right, let's go on to the second slot. So what are three things that come to mind? We see this word, inventory management. Complicated, yeah. Yeah. Dz valid thing. So go on. A lot of work stress. Okay. All right. Let's go on to the next. Okay. So we were making considerations when you're choosing a system that is zeta inventory management is the whole thing when it comes to looking at these systems, but it is something for you to think about, depending on how you currently do your imagery management and how you want to see that transpose, would it in the online space? Understand, you know, how you do inventory currently implemented system online that works for you. Require some upfront time to ease your long-term use of it. And platforms are here to help you grow. So take time to consider options before you dive in as many questions as possible. They get the answers for it for them in other spaces with storytelling me connections when you're looking at the system that you're going to use. And building community in interaction, resistance like or line. Those are some things that you really have to think about, like what system matches the personality of your farm and how you do business. Okay, I'm done. So here's beginning questions to think about and I think I covered a lot. But if the platform fit your business personality, what type of reporting to you acquire? How I manage my inventory online. Does each system have a mobile has a mobile app. What do I want the system to do for me? Like you should list out all those ways, like, what do you need it to do? And if I go online, what customers MI excluding, does the platform a laugh or community connections with my customer do have Internet connection in my location on my farmer's market. How am I going to manage my inventory? These are just some beginning questions. Thanks, Keith. So I'm going to take over from here and kind of dive into some of these questions and talk through some of them. So the first one, the first two actually the top to kind of go hand in hand. So do you already have a payment processor? And this one of the questions in the chat helped bring up square. So one of those payment processors could be square. So if you have square, if you're already using Square to capture payment at a farmers market or with customers in some way. There's a really easy way to turn that into an online store as well as AI for no cost. So what do you have that you're using a payment process for? And when I say payment processor almost stepping back here too, That's that's how you're going to have a transaction online so that you can get that payment from the customer. I almost like to say to consider it a fee is that there's that payment processing fee because there's going to be someone that's handling that transaction online for you and they're going to be taking some sort of percentage or cut. So keep that in mind. Now so you can start with the payment processor and build an online store or kind of almost opposite to that. You can, you might already have a website. Maybe you use Wix or Weebly or Squarespace or something to have created your website for your farm. So you can, there's a lot of different integrations or widgets or apps that you can add to have that honors component to your website. Some other things to think about or to consider already use in online sales is so social media. Going back to some of those low tech options that we had talked about. I've seen farms use Facebook, you know, you can accept payment through Facebook Messenger if you hook it up. You can use Venmo to capture that payment and using Facebook as a way to the messenger to communicate and kind of make those sales in a low tech setting. Versus kind of the next one here, how do you currently communicate? How are you going to, whether you choose to do a store in the simpler ways, whether you choose a little bit more advanced ordering system, how are you going to communicate with your customers? And so I'm going to show some examples of how that e-newsletter could be the e commerce for your business. But I think one thing I want to make sure I really call out is that, that email marketing is really important because that's almost a reminder, a schedule for folks if you have door. So it's a really great communication. And we can go to the next slide. So it's probably super hard to see this, but I'm going to be sharing both this national young Farmers Coalition resource in the chat along with one more resource. This is just a table, but you can see they've really gone through on the top they list tons of different platforms that are out there. I sometimes It's the best and the worst thing that there's so many different platforms to choose from, because you can hopefully find one that fits what you need. But that being said, it makes it a hard decision because there are a lot to consider. So this is a really great resource to use. Because if you have specific, if you've answered, if you've done the homework, like he said, was laid out ahead of myself here. If you've done the homework, you can use those answers to kind of use this spreadsheet and already eliminate some of your options and see what options. Tick all those boxes or answer the most questions that you have posed. So we'll share this resource and then there's another one I'll share in the chat later after I present as well. But we will go to the next slide here. Solid and me for some reason. Technology. So we're here talking about how always works. Right? So we'll talk about what don't know what her back. Yeah. Perfect. There we go. Okay. So sorry for our technical difficulty, but we're back. And so here are some idea. So I'm actually, once I'm going to steal the screenshare, once I've actually talked about these from Abby. So I'm going to show you guys some examples. That's kinda what I want to be able to show today is what some of these things we're talking about actually look like. But kind of, you know, in-order here we've got some of these low tech options like Google Forms or face. I put Facebook groups. I'm in the Upper Peninsula. And one really cool thing I've seen the farmers kind of collaborate on is creating a Facebook group. And so if people are looking to buy they posted the group or if there's something to, to, to sell, they post that in the Facebook group. And it's been a really interesting way for to find new products for me personally. So using those kind of low tech versus kind of going into the newsletter, building a website or having that, that widget. But then we're going to dive into, I'm going to show you some specific food and farming business platforms. So actually, Abby, I'm going to steal the screen share from you here. Let me just make sure I've got the right when opec. So I want to start with the low tech options first. So we've talked about a Google form. I wanted to kind of show this is a produce farm that uses a Google form for their CSA. But I think this would translate super well into a Meet purchase order, a holiday sale and turkeys in for holidays, things like that. So the nice thing about Google form is you can put this kind of top heavy information share and the top where you can communicate information to the person who's filling out the Google form. And as you can see, there's a lot of questions. You can make them required, so you make sure you capture all that information. And then here they capture the different shares that you're able to include photos. And then your customers can order different choices based on what you play. Again, this is low tech, so you're going to have to really create the systems. But the nice thing about it is all of those responses are going to be shared back in an Excel spreadsheet. So you can kind of also sort through that information. The only thing with this is there is no payment processor. There is. This is, again that low tech option where you collect the payment in a different type of way. So that's one option. Moving to the next. So e-newsletter, you probably heard of Mailchimp before. Constant Contact is another. So again, I think it's important to use to just tell the story it, whether you have a store and you want to make sure that folks know that you're, you are selling things, you can prompt new sales. But this meat producer in Upper Peninsula actually uses that to share the price sheet and you just order by calling through the phone. It's again another low tech options. So they start out their newsletter with updates and then they go down here and then they list other different prices. They have different specials and things and then they tell at the bottom here, place your order, you give a call and they shared like pick up information, whichever think is really great. So the next one, this is probably the in-between auction of it's not necessarily built specifically for food and farming businesses, but I've seen a lot of farms, your Shopify. That's what this example is. Green wagon farm. Use a Shopify. They have their online ordering page. They make sure they include all this great information here. And then they have their store here. So that is one option, but then these last two options are specifically meant for food and farming businesses. So we've got Whitney Creek farm here and they are a E and poultry farm and they use barn to door. Should I click, gotten this loaded before? It doesn't take too long. So I really like the look of this. You can shop. They have a different way that things are listed. They also have their CSA on here. And I think because it's a great, I think bonded to fluorine is used by a lot of meat producers. Again, though, because they have so many bells and whistles, you're going to see a lot more fees that are charged. They're going to be more expensive as I'm going along here too, in cost for your business. And the last one here that I've got is a great car, got a different farm here. And then this is another platform that I've seen be popular as well. But again, I will share those resources and you'll be able to dive more into those. And then for my next slide here. I was going to dive into some collaborative. So we've got D Town farm here, which is actually a project that I think he said was working with. And then we also have the Sarah Hardy farmer's market and Ypsi area was market. So these we just wanted to touch on these quickly because we've seen a lot of farms go on the collaborative route because there's a lot of costs that are incurred with these specific platforms for food and farming businesses. So actually all three of these are local food marketplace, but we have seen a lot of farms transitioning, transitioning to use this collaboratively. And so Pisa, I'm actually going to pull up the back and I thought it would be good for folks to see that inventory management side. I've shown a lot of these platforms quickly on the customer, what the customer would see. But I'm going to show kind of what the inventory management side looks like. And if he should, he said If there's anything else that you wanted to share about using the platform so far? Feel free. So first I guess I'll dive in to just what I'm showing. So here again, I kind of stuck with the theme of meat. You can see inventory management isn't just putting the amount of what you have to sell, right? You'd have to create what that looks like. So this is the back-end of creating a product here. So it's nice because you can put in a bunch of different types of packages. You put in your price and certain things you can put in the weight. We can put in descriptors, you can add attributes and you have this list. This is my inventory management. And in a way here of all of the different types of products that are offered on my store. And I can edit how many I have available at a time. So just to kind of show the back-end of what a site would look like. Pieces there anything you wanted to add before I pass out? Pass it on. Yeah. La film is a pretty robust system. So like it's a higher level gray where it's a lot of things happening in the background. So it's good for it. Like if you still a lot of produce, like if you meet a large fry and he said a lot of proteins, but it's also great if you're working in a collaborative, as you notice, has been a trend of markets or smaller farms coming together that are markets or farm stands that work collectively together. Use an LFO to take some of the caught the burden of the cost. Awful, just want fire. And so that goes back into my book. What's really going on in the back? And you were talking about finances, right? So what's going on? So we have a customer, then we have this online marketplace. Mean have this painting me. Gateway is you have to set up. And then there's also merchant accounts and then there's debate in the myths you so what does that mean? So this, uh, mostly transaction for you actually using the platform. And then you have a payment gateway that helps process the credit cards in the back. And then there's these monthly transaction fees that go across. We'd have to actually do all the processing. And then it actually comes in the merchant accounts at the sins did to your bank. Anthony comes comes to you. So Abby, you, Alexander, you have anymore like any input? Well, I thought it is very important we audit ethnicity day to so people can really understand what you get into when you use. We're using these third party says, Yeah, I think the only thing I would add about this too is and I see a question about limitations of email platforms to, is just to think about what your time is worth. And a lot of these spaces, there are costs to going online. Some of them alleviate some other stressors or some other. Sometimes they make up for time and the amount that's able to kinda be processed and organized in this way. But to, but also knowing that you're providing convenience for customers as well. And that, that has a financial value. We've seen farmer is that kind of just put their standard market prices online and call it a day. And then once all of those costs come through, they're looking at their budgets at the end of the season and realizing that they didn't really factor in some of these CA, us enough. And the other thing that I'll say too about thinking about Newsletter platforms, I don't know. I don't have any particular that I can recommend. But what I've heard from what I've heard from a lot of farmers is that investing a lot of time in this like fancy colorful newsletter with recipes and things doesn't necessarily result in the sales volume that it takes to create that. And that what a lot of farmers are finding more success with is having email lists where they can basically just share product availability. Not necessarily need to make a big deal out of it, but just to kind of keep that point of interaction rather than spending a lot of time doing design and fanciful of things. I don't know if Alex okay. Yeah. I would just totally second that I think when I talk about the e-newsletter, the newsletter and email marketing, I wouldn't invest a ton of time. It's a way, a lot of people are in their emails these days and it's a way that your customer is going to get reminded that they need to order from you. So it doesn't have to be a lot of information. I think, especially with these local food marketplace plaque or different ordering platforms. It's just a reminder of like, well, there's a cutoff date that I need to order So my farmer knows when to harvest or when to pull those things. So you want to make sure they're on your schedule. So like that's how I see email marketing being a good tool. So I'm glad you brought that. And with that too, I think it's oops, my dogs bark cam and my array. Do you want me to wrap it up? Okay, so as you move forth off into this new endeavor, we'll consider some things like where do you want to spend your money as little as Abby say with tools you already have access to. Where do you see your business in five years? Who can collaborate with? And how does your method helps connect your community to their foods. In, just remember, transitioning to online sales is always an abysmal. Timely, include yourself in your cause an issue when designing. This is an opportunity to diversify your business. So I know we only have a couple moments for Q and a, but we're happy to take. I see some questions in the chat about price sensitive customers. If you really feel like customers will not bear that kind of increased cost of online sales platforms. And that, that's your current and desired target market of, of that, that group of people. Than I would urge you to consider thinking about platforms that are free, cost or cost neutral. You know, that don't necessarily take all of these little bits of money here and there. Because like we said at the beginning, you can do a lot with Google Forms as far as communicating availability to clients, clients, customers, and managing some of that inventory, having having some recordkeeping that's built into that, and doing some of those payments online without necessarily adding in all these new portals that'll add additional fees to folks who are not really willing to pay that. And I also think if you're going to explore online platforms and have the cost associated with communicating some of that to customers and saying this is an added value that you're getting for it. We have other channels you can go through if you prefer not to do it this way, You know, folks can always exchange cash in person and not incur all of those credit card fees. But I think communicating to your audience why you're making those choices and where that money is coming from and not just, you know, why am I paying an additional 50 cents for my carrots? Can be impactful on that. So all right, I see that Mariel put a link to an evaluation in the chat. If you all would be willing to do that, that would help us out lot because we have a couple more spaces where we're talking about online sales platforms and we always we always appreciate the opportunity to do better. And Alex shared the resource to the National young farmers union. That guide to direct sales platform. They go into a little bit more detail about some of the most popular ones and why you might consider choosing one over the other. So I really appreciate you all come in here, Alex or QC, I want to say anything before we close for the evening. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. And I did just want to thank you for mentioning the nationally on R1. I did a farmer to farmer e-commerce report in there too, that when actually touches more on some of those non business options like Shopify to you. So both those resources are great to get you started and yeah, thank you all so much. And have a great night much. Cusa, Alex and Abby really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us. And just one more plug for attendees. Please remember to fill out the session evaluation and I'll look forward to seeing you at some of the other sessions tomorrow. So we will start up again in the morning. Thanks so much. Have a great night, everyone. Take care.