MSU Extension Gardening in Michigan

Today's cabin fever conversation is on edible landscaping. My name's Abby Harper I'm a community food systems educator with MSU Extension my co-host Isabel will introduce to today's speaker. I am Isabel Branstrom and [Isabel] I am the Consumer Horticulture Educator in Ingham County and I'm going to introduce Naim who also works for MSU He is the Director of the MSU Detroit Partnership for Food Learning and Innovation. D.P. FLI ... I got it! and it is also sometimes know as the MSU Detroit Urban Food Site. So we're really excited to have Naim here today to talk about edible landscaping. I want to start off by asking you Naim, what is edible landscaping and could you paint us a visual of what it looks like? [Naim] Yes. First of all thank you Abby and Isabel for having me on the conversation. Edible landscaping is utilizing a landscape. It could be a front yard. A sidelot, a streetscape. Pretty much any outdoor space. With the primary function of growing food and immediately edible items like fruits and nuts. [Isabel] Cool [Naim] Should I share my screen? Yeah if you want to share something that be great. I could run through the presentation pr guys could ask your questions first I think we could pepper questions throughout if I went to presenter mode. Ok yeah that's my show. So can you can you maybe help us understand the difference between edible landscaping and gardening? Yes So gardening in my opinion is more so vegetable gardening specifically, is growing for crops that you eat. oftentimes people generally grow salad kinds of vegetables; leafy vegetables or things that require some degree of cooking and they're also gardening annual plants which are plants that complete their whole life cycle in one year and you need to plant them again every year. Whereas edible landscape is more woody plants to some degree and perennial plants as well. So plants that will come back year after year. The scale can be similar and you can do the edible landscaping and a bunch of buckets or pots on a porch or you could have acres and acres of land. Pretty much main differences. [Abby] I know you've got some great pictures here so. Walk us through them. Ok so [Naim] my foray if you will in edible landscaping began in Ecuador, where I did Peace Corps. And the wonderful little town in the bottom left corner called Zaruma which is and of the southern part of the country close to the border with Peru. It's kind of this tropical place where mangoes oranges, tangerines bananas avocados and then a lot of less popular fruits in the United States, sapote, a star fruit, maracuya, guanabana all grew just out and about around the city that I lived in. So you might be walking downtown or heading to a neighbor's house and you would pass these fruit trees along the way and they were also used as a part of the landscape in a lot of the parks. So sometimes those trees are intentionally planted by people and sometimes they were just naturally occurring as a part of the city's landscape similar to a yard or bushes or something. And most of the environments that we live in. The first bullet point simply says "life in the tropics" and I think it's safer to say that in the tropics and developed countries It's more common to see these exotic fruits like everywhere and to be more closely connected to them is just a part of things that you enter act with on a daily basis. And one of the things that I often noticed was that children or anybody who was able would climb these trees or grab a stick or something and it was normal to just go out and like harvest the fruit he says they ripen on the trees. Rather than purchase them and store. The second bullet point "Local Relationship to Fruit" I just mentioned people saw these fruits not as something that was an item said the purchased but something that just occurred naturally in their environment and their relationship with that was "If I see this fruit tree, I can have kind of a direct connection to it and utilize it as the food." And then also the trees themselves were so that people could climb on for fun. Kids would play in mango trees, avocado trees, just climb up in them and collect the plants. Then if the tree itself was neglected then the fruits would just fall to the ground and then be available for the native fauna. Lastly my life in the Peace Corps "The cost of local fruit" Ecuadorians loved to ask and tease me about how much does a mango cost. How much does and avocado cost in America and I would say "a dollar, a dollar fifty, two dollars" They (would laugh) It grows right here in my front yard! A ha ha ha!" Even if you went to a market some buy it in Ecuador it would be like purchasing candy or something. $0.05 or $0.25 or you could buy 12 bananas where I live for $0.25 and they they could not give you enough bananas. If you had a dollar they would fill up a whole grocery bag with bananas. So that was how I got into edible landscaping and while I was in Ecuador it occurred to me that there is no reason that places in the United States can't be managed the same way. [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Isabel] That's cool! So what about it, and I know you went through the main points, but what about it really got you hooked and you're like "I need to bring you some of this back to Michigan where I'm going and kind of incorporate it in my life and my environment"? [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] So I think the two main things that kind of struck me were Recognizing that particularly in Michigan and Michigan is off and recognized as next to California a state that's almost 3 or 4 times bigger than Michigan and the second most abundant crop diverse state in the country. A a large number of those crops are actually perennial fruits and nuts. A lot of people in the country if not across the world get their cherries their apples their pears, plums, strawberries all kinds of stuff from here in Michigan. They're grown in like these special orchards and places like that but they don't have to be exclusively grown there, so recognizing that You can intercrop and grow these things anywhere where there is essentially soil that can support the plants is one thing and another thing about edible landscaping , two other things, is pushing back against industrial large scale mono culture to some degree and also just making the production of food a more normal more common and more popular thing across every environment so. For some odd reason and maybe it's not that odd of a reason, as cities developed across the country decisions were made by urban planners potentially or by anybody that it's cooler or more practical to plant maple trees, oak trees, sycamore trees, locust trees etc. rather than plant trees that people could utilize more directly for fruit. And there's no reason that if you walk up the street there couldn't be apples, mangoes, pears, peaches, elderberry, etc. So I really became, from my life in Ecuador, passionate about making food more available. ...It has always been a hot topic, food security and then living in Detroit and in places where poverty is prevalent and people are constantly trying to figure out ways to make food more accessible. It's like if you put a tree somewhere it requires minimal management and them it creates for years on end the harvest item that can provide sugar and potentially protein, fats, seeds, fiber, a lot of nutrients that people could get simply by walking up to the thing and harvesting it. They don't need money they don't need barely an education or a car or anything like that so... I became passionate about creating those landscapes here in Michigan. [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] I think I can connect with that idea of the joy of the harvest and I think that's a really important thing. So now, Niam, can you talk about how you're currently implementing edible landscaping and your work at the DPFLI? [Naim] Yes So this slide shows the master plan. for the site I was hired by Michigan State University Extension to develop and it's pretty much, close to three and a half acre site, former school property in northwest Detroit. You can pretty much see all labeling around the image that the southern portion of the property is going to be committed to reproduction, urban agriculture research, storm water management research, agro- forestry and topics like that. The northern part of the property pretty much every round circle that doesn't have edging to it is a tree that has not yet been planted at the site. So over the next one to three years we plan to plant close to 100 trees and shrubs if not more than that. So we would scatter edible food and nut plants throughout the northern part of the site as well. and then we plan to build three buildings. We just completed our first one in February right before COVID19 started disrupting our lives. Fortunately we have at least one building there and in the next 2 to 10 years we hope to complete the other two. The buildings will serve as a space for MSU Extension and other organizations to do education. outreach and have community meetings. Pretty much I plan to incorporate and create a model and demonstration site for what the edible landscaping looks like at this place. This slide shows a Google image from the Google satellite of what the site looked like last summer before the first building was built. if you can see my mouse the first building is now right there by the cursor. The southern portion of the property is currently divided into these 50 by 50 foot plots which you can kind of see them mowed out and these 10 foot aisles between them. We are also planning to do some small bio intensive orchard planting this year to start introducing the perennial fruit and nut crops on to the site. I'm going to jump in and ask what a your top three favorite plants/crops to incorporate into an edible landscape in Michigan? I've been getting into hazelnuts Which is kind of like a bushy shrub, a woody plant so hazelnuts would be one. I'll go just for fun with a fruit and a vegetable. For fruit, paw paw. I've also become a big paw paw fan just for the sake of diversifying my own palate. Of course they are native to Michigan and Midwest United States so that's both kind of a double bonus of you get a native plant incorporated into this landscape rather than cultivars for plants that we've introduced and naturalized to the United States and I think asparagus will be my perennial vegetable. That comes back every year so asparagus pop up and hazelnuts we might very well. This is like a protein in fiber sugar. Like covers it good, and oil you can get oil from all that. [Abby] I think it really demonstrates often people think of gardens as a year to year thing and it takes a little more time and leg work to build up those crops but it's cool to see how much more of your diet you can provide from incorporating perennials things into your garden and trees. So on the first slide you showed all those trees. Are those all intended to be edible tree production. The first slide meaning... The one where you went to the overlay of DPFLI . [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] Yes, so some of them will simply be trees that would be beneficial to the soil or native pollinators, birds etc. As balanced as I can integrate the development and planting of the site there will definitely be a mix of shrubs that are more beneficial to nature found in the city and through fruit and nut plants as well. [Abby] So what are we looking at here, are these kind of the gamut of this year's things to plant? Yes So this year. [Naim] This is pretty much a photo guide of some of the plants that we'll be introducing to the site this year. And to two of the 50X50 plots. One of them is going to be this bio-intensive orchard where will be growing these perennials in somewhat of an orchard like pattern. I can intentionally plant in linear path but they'll be really close in proximity to each other. Then in another are just doing kind of your typical diversified annual crop growth. This is kind of the beginning of the first phase of creating a landscape that people can walk to the site and then... Well I don't know about this year with coronavirus and all that, we have to figure out how to safely allow folks to access food. But at least the food will be produced at the site this year. Our current plan is to donate the majority of it to a local food pantry. But I would like to be able to balance donating some of it, preserving some of it, and then allowing public access like "you pick it" kind of thing for another portion of it that we'll have to figure out how to operate and regulate all those things as time progresses. [Isabel] So we had just a really quick question come in, is upper image in the upper left- is that elderberry? Somebody wants to know. It is. So I'll just for [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Isabel] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] the sake of going through all of the stuff... this is pawpaw, elderberry, hazelnut Cherry , Saskatoon pear, Apple Black Raspberry and grapes. Corn...this you are planted Black Aztec corn and Glass Gem corn. I haven't planted the Glass Gem corn yet but I have the seeds for it. Pumpkin, strawberry soybeans or edamame, String bean or a fin de bangol is the specific variety of string bean that will be planting, black eyed peas, collard greens and peanuts I'm going to try. Other stuff not pictured include okra to and cucumber, kale bock choy, snap peas, but I didn't put a picture of everything in there. [Abby] So, Naim, one of the questions that is critical for me is this is a really awesome site but I even see the opportunities for this to expand beyond people's individual gardens into to kind of like city planning and things like that. Working civically in Lansing and how we often have this battle between electrical lines and tree health. Thinking about how to incorporate more of these kind of urban friendly, maybe smaller trees that also double as food production. Have you been doing anything like that in Detroit? [Naim] So this is my 2nd year with extension so I haven't much other than oversee the construction of our first building and get the soil prepped at the site for planting. I do work pretty close with folks in city government Detroit city government and they would really like, one of the sources of inception when this site was created essentially former president Mary Louanna Simon And the current mayor of Detroit, Mike Duggan had met up and they wanted to figure out ways that Michigan State University could play a more direct role in the development of Detroit and one of the kind of silver lining sweet spots that they found was utilizing MSU 's is the land grant expertise for resources to support urban agriculture in the city so to some degree the hope is that we can and both do research as well as education and outreach and finding kind of best practices for landscaping, urban agriculture practices, and management ways to make gardens and urban agriculture businesses more sustainable and viable ways to support the local food system so one of the things that as we scale up at the site and do outreach across the city is to hopefully create surrettes and basic designs that can be and at small scale and kind of neighborhood wide patterns for increasing production. [Isabel] So , Naim, as you develop the site how do you incorporating community input and thoughts? [Naim] the creation of the master plan was the product of about 6 months of monthly town hall Round Table meetings with community members. That all happened before I was hired but to my understanding close to 75 different individuals, mostly city residents and most who work in city government both elected officials and city employees came to those meetings and informed Michigan State administrators as well as our landscape developer what were the most kind of pertinent and relevant things that they wanted to see at the site. As well as figuring out things that the city government specifically wanted to implement as part, bike trails, public wellness increasing food access and then creating these models for things that could be implemented in places away from the site. So it was about 9 month process total before the master plan was made and 6 of those months were direct public engagement with folks who live close to the site and people across this we also have a community advisory council. They consist of 15 people 8 of them are individuals who live within 2 miles of the site. The other seven are people who live in Detroit so they're all Detroit residents and then they represent neighborhood non-profits, urban Ag organizations, environmental stewardship organizations, academic institutions in Wayne State University of Michigan, MSU, and there's a youth position for someone who's a voice for people under 25, as well as a person who is more artistically oriented and helps us be more mindful of involving artists in the development of the site. [Abby] Very cool. So I am looking at this picture and thinking about my own garden which really bends towards the poly culture annual and Kind of annual cycle of pulling out and putting in I'm trying to think about how to incorporate some of these practices. Can you provide a couple ideas or good places to start for beginners? [Naim] it could be vegetables or fruits or trees. What are some kind of like easy 1st steps for incorporating edible landscaping into their current practices. I'll just jump to the next slide for fun but I would say for anyone who's interested in doing edible landscaping, the most important thing is to identify what it is that you eat or what food items you want to share with your community. it is always more of an investment when the foods that you grow have relevance to you and have some substance in your life. It could be as simple as having an apple tree or two apple trees. Once you identify what you want to grow. Start to learn what the habitat and soil requirements of those plants are, and then maybe narrow the list of what you want to grow down based on the type of land that you have and that's at a space that you have. Some stuff is really simple like strawberries if you only have your front porch or balcony or something like that... I've never heard of anyone growing asparagus in a container but I'm sure that it's possible. Strawberries for sure are a perennial plant that will come back every year and it's just like the basic " this edible landscape has 2 things that I can eat that I only have to plant once or once every 3 or 4 years." You can start with that and then scale out as your skills and familiarity with the plants increases. [Abby] So are there are there particular ,I know you said a couple of your favorites. We've mentioned in our conversations leading up to this that being thoughtful of your habitat and what naturally grows around you... talk about how people might walk through that process of deciding. [Naim] Yeah I guess one short anecdote is I just purchased a house with my wife a month ago. We had seen the house in the winter and I didn't spend too much time looking at the surrounding property. Our backyard which had a ton of introduced trees, volunteer trees if you will, but it turned out that one of them was actually a black walnut. I like black walnuts, and it would be good to keep it, but black walnuts have alleopathy, which means different parts of the plant produce a chemical that inhibits the growth of other plants so it would not be prudent to plant other plants that I might be interested in near my black walnut tree. Fortunately there aren't too many fruit crops that I'm familiar with that would have a negative impact on other plants but it's going to also just as it pertains to being familiar with what you're growing know how they interact with other plants because they might attract a certain pest or inhibit or reduce the yield and productivity of another plant. I can't remember the question.... [Abby] I think there is just about like how to make considerations . we got a question that came in too about conditions for some of these tree fruits that you're... Specifically hazelnuts But even thinking like Michigan has a big chestnut production how do the conditions required for those interact with some of the annual crops that you are talking about? if you're depending on your space you generally probably don't want to grow too many trees in an area that you want to grow annuals in or that or that requires a lot of sunlight because the trees will eventually get to a size that creates a lot of shade. So you want to be mindful of the design of the landscape as well. A huge part of edible landscaping design is knowing that there are layers to both the height and with plants and the size of a plant affects its ability to both shade out or receive sunlight. So you can grow a vining plant or something that is less needy of direct sunlight underneath the tree or close to a tree and then it wouldn't be that big of an issue. Or you could simply say you know on this space here I'll make sure that there's never shade and I always will plant my annuals here and then I'll kind of buffer or go around it on these other shrubs and trees that would be beneficial. I think most plants. I know particularly in urban environments the soil quality can be really bad but I generally operate from a place of "plants know best how to grow best and humans can only create and support that growth". Our side lot has a lot of clay in it and I pretty much plan to add to balance the nutrients a little fertilizer, organic fertilizer every year as well as compost and over time trust that I'll improve the soil quality as the plants themselves grow. This year I purchased 25 hazel nuts and 25 of Aronia (chokeberry) I only bought them because all the other vegetables and fruits that I wanted to buy weren't available online but Aronia has medicinal benefits and I'm pretty much going to create a hedge row with it. As the plants grow and year after year as you get access to compost or produce your own you can incorporate that into the soil and gradually create an optimal habitat for producing the edible landscape. I think patience is one of the virtues that you either practice and foster or that you need immediately when you do this because edible landscapes are rarely implemented in one year or one growing season. they're like 1,2,3,5,10 years in process. To get them fully implemented depending on the amount of space that you're working with. [Abby] So for me that brings out one of the one of my favorite things about gardening is kind of that sharing and contributing to others and edible landscaping. That's part of that long term impact where you don't necessarily know if you're going to see... If you're going to directly experience the fruits of your labor. I had planted a bunch of nut trees last year and I was like "I don't know if this is a good idea or not because I don't know where I'll be in five years when these start to flower, and start to populate and produce food." Part of that is that creating community resilience in food production and that ability to keep producing even after you're gone. [Naim] Yeah and I've also I am glad you brought that up Abby, I'm operating from this place of "we and I do this thing on my property" but a huge part of the edible landscaping philosophy or mentality similar to my experience in Ecuador is like you are putting plants in the ground that will not just provide something for you but something for your community so you're also putting a plant in the ground that may very well provide more than you alone or your family alone can consume. Like a 15 year old apple tree that yields like 200 some pounds of granny smith or whatever. So even if you move to another place you're leaving behind a space that continues to yield and gift and provide for those who live near it so a huge part of edible landscape implementation is involving others in the process so that even when you're gone if no one is necessarily maintaining it they can at least benefit from knowing "that's an apple tree or a pear tree or that's a hazelnut or a black walnut and I don't need to let these things fall to the ground and rot, I can go and harvest these things throughout the growing season. [Isabel] So Naim, I think we're going to transition to some audience questions even though we've kind of been peppering them in. [Isabel] So the 1st one that I thought was kind of relevant relates to what you were just talking about was "Is edible landscaping permaculture." [Naim] yes. That's a yes I think. So permaculture is fundamentally creating plants that will persist in the landscape without human input or consistently needing them , so permaculture has a higher prioritization of perennial plants over annual production and creating a space. So yeah they overlap a ton. I'm thinking is permaculture the same thing as edible [Abby] landscaping? It sounds like permaculture is the big umbrella and edible landscaping is one way that that expresses itself, but I also think permaculture can involve more non edible plants as well versus edible landscaping which is permaculture for eating . [Naim] Yeah so I definitely they're maybe two sides of the same coin. If you had a landscape of just trees and you were walking up a street and all those trees were fruit trees, I would say that's a permaculture system and it's also an edible landscape. Can you do edible landscaping? You can do edible landscaping without permaculture though because the edible landscape could be a 100 percent annual plants so that there's also a distinction between an edible forest and an edible landscape so you could have a beautiful field of just annual plants that you can eat and that would technically count as well. So yes and no. Both and. [Isabel] And it depends. So another another question we had is people are really excited about the DPFLI and are curious if there is any way for them to get involved or the best way to engage with the space. [Naim] Yes So the hope and the plan. Despite COVID19 is that the site be a research site and engagement site an education site. So I want the site itself to function like a public park or an interpretive center where people can come for free and learn through reading signs and just walking the space as much as they can. The programs and educational opportunities offered at the site would also be a more structured opportunity for people to come and be engaged we really hope to engage Master Gardeners across the state and in Wayne County, Oakland County, Macomb, southeast Michigan in particular. The plan this year was that I would actually supervise up to 5 different interns including MSU undergrads, U of M undergrads Wayne State students and high school students in Detroit. That will hopefully only be deferred until next year. And there's also plans that hopefully if funding and things are in place that I would also have staff, additional staff to help support the management of the site. [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] So there's quite a few people that have heard the ideas you've presented and enthusiasm around Fruit falling from the sky into your lap for eating. Hopefully soft fruits... I had a black walnut tree in my backyard that we had to wear helmets on our head. That's a little bit of a more of a dangerouse landscape But if folks were wanting to implement these kind of practices in either their homes in their cities how might they start it? Would it just be planting something that ...planting a perennial crop this year. [Naim] So I think. The easiest thing is to find the space. And in Detroit a big issue is often do you own the land do you not own the land but if you have your own yard then I would recommend starting with fruits, vegetable that you eat and purchasing that are finding it if you have foraging savvy or know how to access those things without purchasing those, I super support that. If you have a local resource or entity that sells those things I support that as well. I do a lot of my purchasing from Michigan Gardener, which is up in the thumb region. This year I bought asparagus from them. I bought strawberries from Indiana Berry company. that I'll be planting and then I also have black berries and raspberries that I'll be planting this year from Indiana Berry company as well. I'm not endorsing any of them I'm simply sharing where I purchased them. Yes , So I would say the 1st thing is to just ask yourself "what do I want to grow? Where can I grow it?". if you can check both boxes there are things that I want to grow and I have space to grow them start there. Figure out what the things you want to grow require or need and try to tailor the space that you have to support those plants. There's probably other unspoken issues of potential zoning regulations, but I feel like unless you're doing something large scale that probably won't be issued but don't hold me to it. [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] [Naim] [Abby] Yeah in some of the parks in Lansing where they've removed some of the older dead deciduous trees they're starting to replant with edible. We've got edible garden.. I think it's a community orchard it's call them east side where folks can just kind of go and pick and that's for the community and kind of in place of some of those less urban friendly huge trees that tend to get into our lines and things like that so. It can be both a kind of planning and like city and community wide project as well as steps that you can take right in your own yard. I think we're getting pretty close to time Naim, we like to end every session just asking the speaker what is bringing your joy or hope or inspiration with edible landscaping in this current climate . [Naim] There is a lot of speculation and speculation might even be an exaggeration, there's a lot of anticipation that food scarcity will be the Issue going into the summer and into the fall with the food system disruptions that COVID19 has caused. So getting the edible landscape at the site and at home off the ground as well as promoting that as far and wide as possible gives me lots of hope and just knowing that they exist is also like a really encouraging thing. And just really looking forward to having tons of spaces that produce an abundant amount of healthy nutritious locally access free food Gives me joy and makes me happy. And I'm glad to be a person who's implementing and promoting that. Can I just type answers or something to [Abby] the stuff in the about how to get involved in the site and where the site is located at and things like that. We will make sure to send all of that in our follow up email. [Naim] Can I just go through the last slide super quick are absolutely please do so in addition to the food that's produced I just want a throw up some bullet points and some resources that I'm sure will be shared out after but things to highlight or take away from edible landscapes and edible forest is that the food that is being grown, I'm simply articulating this isn't necessarily a principle that I know that is formally associated, is returning food to the Commons and making food, fruit and nuts - things that people can just go out and access and don't have to purchase in a store. It's a diversified and resilient ecosystem so disruptions from climate change and less and less of an ability to kind of anticipate weather patterns, these are systems that hold and retain water better are more resilient against drought, more resilient against pest outbreaks and support biodiversity - your pollinators, your birds, your bats and probably a lot of mammals that you might not want to share your food with but they can also exist and do well in that system. Fewer inputs over time and so you're creating a system that can sustain itself through using ecology and supporting a diversity that the system itself fosters and promotes, and then sequestering carbon in the soil and in the vegetation. So as all of these plants grow over time they're sequestering carbon in their biomass and they're also putting more carbon into the soil which is presumably improving air quality and reducing the amount of carbon in the atmosphere. This is like a win win win win win win. I believe anyway that it's all those things that I think plans. [Abby] Six wins! [Naim] Then the fact that (inaudible) are kind of like Naim's top 5 things that pertain to and influenced my position on edible forests and edible andscapes. (Abby)Yeah I will be sure to include those with the follow up e-mails. (Naim) I thank you all. ( Isabel) yeah it was fun! [Abby] I am imagining future city that has chestnuts and hazelnuts and apple trees and pear trees, and just walking down the street and taking snacks. [Naim] We park no reason it shouldn't be there. [Abby] All right well thank you everybody for being with us today we really appreciate having you, Naim, and sharing your work. Hope that folks got some idea for how to build long term edibility into their gardens and their landscapes. We will as we mention will share resources and some of the books in "Naim's top five influential authors" and influential readings to follow up this email and we will look forward to seeing you next week. Next week we have a Chelsea Graham who is going to talk about wild bees. So we're really looking forward to that one and hopefully folks will join us for that. [Isabel] that yes yes thank you everybody for tuning in. Thank you so much Naim, again this was really wonderful. [Naim] I'm inspired. [Isabel] Sometimes you just inspire yourself! And that's a beautiful thing. [Naim] I was simply presenting information and facts that already exist I'm just sharing it with others. [Abby] well you're an inspirational conduit thank you Naim Alright folks, we'll see you next week on Friday at 10 am for the next cabin fever conversation. Thanks Everybody.