Succession Planning Part 2: Why is Talking About Business Succession so Difficult?
February 15, 2021
Okay good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Michigan Ag Ideas To Grow With, virtual conference. My name is Florencia Colella and I am a farm business management educator with Michigan State University. I cover West central Michigan, and it is my pleasure to welcome you to this session. We have Stan Moore and Roger Betz here. This is succession planning. The second second part, they'll tell you more about it but Stan covers the Northern part of the state and Roger Betz covers the Southeast part of the state. And before we get started, I'd like to, yeah I'd like to tell you that this session is being recorded and session recordings will be shared a few weeks after conference. And I'd also like to take a quick moment to thank our sponsors, who we are seeing on the screen. Due to their generous support, we're able to offer this event at no charge to participants, and we're also able to offer a college scholarship opportunity that's on the green slide. And so please check out that website for more information, if you're interested. In addition to this, I have a short video that I'd like to share with you. Caring for crops and animals creates a unique stress and pressure that can be hard on farmers and agribusiness professionals, caring for one's own health and wellness in this high stress profession is often overlooked but it's just as critical as caring for the farm business. Whether these stresses come from a financial issue or stresses of everyday life MSU extension can help. - Hi, my name is Eric Karbowski and I'm a behavioral health educator with MSU extension that focuses on farm stress with your farm stress tip. We know that farmers are an independent culture and oftentimes are the last ones to reach out for help. But do you ever feel yourself feeling down during the gray sky days of winter? If you do, you may be experiencing seasonal effective disorder. In most cases, seasonal affective disorder symptoms appear during the late fall, early winter and oftentimes go away in the sunnier days of spring and summer. Some signs and symptoms of people that experienced seasonal affective disorder might include feeling depressed, loss of interest in activities that you once enjoyed, having low energy or feeling tired a lot of the day, experiencing changes in your appetite that could be weight gain or significant weight loss, feeling sluggish or at agitated. Having difficulty concentrating or maybe feeling hopeless, worthless, or guilty. And so next time you look up at the sky and see the gray clouds and notice yourself feeling a little down, knowing that there are many days in the winter months ahead take a deep breath, know that you're not alone. And sometimes it's okay not to feel okay, but also know that there are a lot of supports available to you. And many of those supports and resources can be found on our MSU extension farm stress website, and know that there are a lot of people that are working very hard behind the scenes to support you as you support us. Thank you and have a great day. - Okay, so if you would like to learn more about farm stress please join us on Friday, February 19th at 11:00 AM for the session Mending The Stress Fence. You can find the zoom link and passcode on the final schedule that was emailed to you. Now let's jump into today's presentation. If you have any questions during the presentation please type them into the Q and A box. Let's begin Stan, the floor is yours. - You are muted, Stan. - There we go. Can you hear me now? - Yes, you're all set. - No, great, thank you. Thanks for that introduction Florencia and for hosting our session. If you're attending, if you've been attending the farm succession, this is our second of three and we wanna welcome you to this afternoon's program. I'm gonna kind of pick off, pick up where Roger left off and talk about one of the goals that he had mentioned this morning. If we remember the first goal was to ensure that the senior generation could retire, would be taken care of in retirement be able to realize their goals in retirement. The second goal is family harmony and this is second because it's very important. Family members really need to be able to get along. And that's tough sometimes in a family business. Once heard that that farmers are unique, but they're not uniquely unique from one of my colleagues, Bob Milligan. And what he meant by that was is, you know farming, farm businesses are unique but there are a lot like other small family owned businesses or moderately sized family owned businesses. There's a lot of intertwines between family and the business. And sometimes it gets really hard to put that hat on or take that hat off when you sit around the table. But we want you to be able to do that. We want you to be able to enjoy time with your family. After this transition takes place. We want you to still be able to get together for holidays and do traditional family activities to be able to enjoy each other's company and be able to keep that those lines of communication open so that we know what's needed and wanted from the different generations, as we move through this process. Because the farm succession really is a process that we go through. All right, so communication is the key. And there was a recent study by The Williams Group of 3,250 families, family owned businesses that failed in the second or third generation. And Roger even talked about this earlier, you know that the first generation builds and the second generation maintains the third generation you know, the business kind of fails under their direction or leadership or lack thereof, or just that things were never set up right to begin with. And that's what we really think about oftentimes is what tools did we use? Did we use the right tools in farm succession? When Roger and I get calls, Florencia gets calls from farms oftentimes they're, you know, should I use a trust? Should I use a will, should I use this tool or that tool? Well, if you look at why businesses failed breakdown of trust and communication was basically two thirds of those businesses. That breakdown in trust, breakdown of trust and communication within the family. Second, failure to prepare their heirs for the roles and responsibilities 25%. So between those two that's 90%, and that's what we're gonna talk about in this hour. Look at way down at the bottom, less than 5% was a state in financial planning errors. Oops, we chose the wrong tool Roger. We should have chose a trust. I knew that was the right thing to choose. That's less than 5% of the failures were due to choosing the wrong tool. Okay, well, there's really two things that you communicate when you're talking with somebody. It's there's the what, that's the content. And there's also how we communicate. And so, you know, you can, you can communicate content and you can either build up a relationship or you can tear it down. And that second part is pretty important. They're really both important to make sure that we're getting our message across but that we're also doing it in a way that maintains or builds that relationship, hopefully in our communication. So first, we're gonna talk about the what, there's visions and goals that need to be communicated between the generations, expectations. There's the logistics. And then of course the transition plan itself. Well, visions and goals. Both generations really need to see clearly and articulate clearly where they see the farm going in the future and what goals they have. And to really recognize that as they're sharing those goals they're probably gonna be inconsistent from generation to generation, right? So we often run into farms that the senior generation really is not interested in building the business, because maybe they've waited for this transition to happen until mom and dad are 65, 70 years old. Well, I can attest to, as you get older your risk tolerance kind of goes down. And so you might not be as interested in some of the same goals as your son or daughter that are excited about seeing where this business can go. So we got to get those out of them to the table. We need to clearly articulate those between the generations. Talk about them, see where we can find some commonality between the generations so we can move forward. What are your expectations? You know, what are you expecting to do in this next phase of this farm operation? So if I'm expecting to be the manager in charge and my sibling is also expecting to be the manager in charge, making the final decision we may have a problem that we need to resolve. How are decisions gonna get made on this farm? What's your role gonna be? What's your sibling's role is gonna be? Maybe this farm will need to have some management areas defined so that we can get along and still get together at the end of the day and have dinner and have coffee in the morning, enjoy each other's company. Maybe it's not gonna be a 50 50 on every decision. Maybe we need to break the, break those decisions down depending on the area of the farm. So get those expectations out on the table. What you want to do. What's your role is gonna be, what your siblings roles are gonna be. Then there's the logistics. How are you gonna operate as the leader of this new farm operation? If the son or daughter are really gonna be successful in this operation, in this business, they're gonna need to become your shadow. They need to know they need to get inside your head and know why did you make that decision, Roger? Well, here's why, these are my goals. This is what's important to me. This is what affects my decision-making. See too many farms that just wanna hand the keys over, you know from dad to son or dad daughter, when I'm done I'll give you the keys and it's all yours. Well, that's nice that you've given them all these assets, but have you given them the training that they need to be successful and at least understood how you did it. They can disagree with how you did it, but should they know how you operate it as a business. They need to see those checkbooks and see the financial statements that Roger talked about this morning. They need to know, you know, where is the weaknesses on the farm and how those can be alleviated or taken care of, or adjust how things can be adjusted on the farm to make it stronger in the future. So that's the third thing we need to talk about. And then the transition plan. And Roger's gonna talk a lot more about this in the third hour, but, you know are you really communicating the how, how and when you see it happening. Roger and I were in a meeting not too long ago this past year where a young lady shared that she and her husband left her family farm, that she was supposed to eventually become the owner operator of because they would not put a plan down. They wouldn't even talk about when a plan was gonna be put down. So at a minimum you need to have a plan to have a plan, but really that successor generation needs to know once it's gonna take place, how is it gonna take place. Really talking that through is one of those early steps that needs to happen. Roger, you took the mic off, you wanna comment? - Yeah, we see those problems, Stan, often about where the communication, you know, and I know the easy part is all the math and doing the financial now also is that's relatively easy with this whole communications and getting people on board. I can't stress enough how important this process that Stan is talking about. It is the major breakdown and it is reason why I have farmers that call me and very sincere, good operations. And they may be two brothers have been in partnership together for quite a while. Dad's passed away and they just can't get along to talk about the future and so forth. So, so I can't say enough about what Stan is talking about here over. - That's good, Roger, and feel free to jump in at any point. So I should wrap back around to the story. So this young lady told the Roger and I, that she in the evening, one evening after she had bugged her parents about a plan for a number of years, capital working but no idea what was gonna happen, gets a call from another state where her husband's family was and says, hey, would you guys like to become part of the operation? We'd like you to take over this farm. And here's what we're thinking. And here's the plan. And the next week they were headed West. And so I don't say that to secure you. I say that to say, we gotta communicate. You know, we have to communicate that just don't assume that handing them the keys, you know at some point in the future is gonna be enough. There needs to be a plan. They wanna learn what you're doing. They want this to be a process to manage, co-manage this with you for a while. So they can really pick up on these management skills with you. So then come to an agreement on that plan, obviously. And then when, and how are you gonna communicate that with non-farming heirs? 'Cause they have to be part of the process too. You know, there's the equitable versus equal that Roger talks about that we need to kind of think that through with both the farming and non-farming heirs to make this transition possible. Well then there's the, how that we, how we communicate. And I said this earlier on I want to come back around to it. You know, that the definition of communication is just that exchange of thoughts, messages, or information but we know there's a lot more to it than that. And the fact is, all of us can look at it at ourselves probably and say we don't do the best job at listening. We lack some skills there. I'm reminded of that on a regular basis. And then we don't really express ourselves real well sometimes you know, we may think we do, but we find out that boy you heard something a lot different than what I was saying. So we don't do the best job at that as well. There's a quote by Stephen Covey there that says we first need to understand and then be understood. We need both of those. And fact is we all have a ways to go in that area but the good news is it's something that we can improve on. And it does make a difference as we walked down that road. So how do we become better at communication skills? Well, one of the things is to, is to become people conscious. You know, who are you actually talking to? You know, I see this on farms where, you know we're just not really paying attention to the employee that's talking to the owner. And if the owner has a nickname for the employee instead of knowing their regular name their real name, that's a problem. You know, we ought to know something about the individuals that work with us, our family members we ought to have an interest in what they're doing. So, you know know people well, communicate, you know, be in their lives, understand what they're thinking ask them on a regular basis. It's a whole lot easier to talk about goals and hurt feelings and whatever else, if we're communicating on a regular basis versus trying to do this, all of a sudden that when we wanna transition the farm over. It's a good place to start, but it's a lot easier if we get this happen on a regular basis. So use positive speech, you know Try not to be accusatory in your language in identifying when you're doing that. We're gonna talk a little bit about that, but really trying to catch yourself when you're using speech that's not positive. I say meanings are in people and not words. What does that mean? Well, it means that words can have different meanings. Roger can say something, especially this happens on text. Please don't make your farm succession plan over text with your kids or with your parents or emails where it's just add more than one medium. And you may say something and somebody else hears it differently. And so you really have to confirm, you know what are they understanding? In some words just don't give enough information. We need to, we need circle back around. We need to recover areas of what we're trying to communicate to make sure that they hear or understood us. And that we understood them when they're talking. Listening barriers, faking attention, you know, walking past somebody and talking to them as you're going by instead of stopping and seeing eye to eye, responding to the wrong thing, that'll get you in trouble right away, right? Or sometimes we just don't hear the whole message. We hear what we want to hear. So we need to limit that. How do we limit some of that? Well, we slow down, you know, speak at a moderate rate make sure that we're really fully engaged in the conversation that we're having. We give feedback. You know, when Roger said that to me is that what you meant, Roger? Because this is what I heard. You know, I heard that you were giving my brother, John, you know what I'm hearing you say is he's getting about twice as much as what I'm getting, or maybe there's something else. And so we need to we need to stop and clarify and understand the why, maybe he is, maybe John's gonna, you know take over the farming operation. And that's the only way the farm is gonna succeed. So clarifying, restating, giving feedback in our communications. You know, if we're trying to include improve our verbal communications as thinking before you speak, it's being specific and simplifying what we're saying, you know sometimes I think myself too good of a storyteller and I find out I'm really not. I get to be too many details out there and I would have been a lot better off just saying what I wanted to communicate. And then if I want to add a story, fine, but let's just be clear in what we're saying to begin with. Present your thoughts, logically, patience, patience, patience, and then summarize. What are the things that can really get us in trouble? And I have experienced this in some farm succession meetings is using the word, you, a lot. And you know, I could use this for those of you that may have came in a little bit late today, you know, and I noticed some of you came in late and that really puts people at the defensive, how could you do this, dad? How could you put us in this kind of financial situation? And now I'm taking over the farm with, you know, $300,000 of debt. How could you make that decision? How could you sell that? How could you buy this? You know and all those you things that we can say that really you know, put forward kind of a blame message and really put somebody on the defensive. Instead you can use I messages and communicate better. Roger wanted to jump in there before I switched slides. - No, you're doing fine. I was just gonna say back before one of the, maybe gonna come to, I didn't want to take your thunder going head, but I do that sometimes for me too, but- - We've talked a few times. - One of the things that I find very, very powerful is on both sides of the equation. If I'm upset about something, okay? And somebody won't listen to me, they won't understand. I don't care if they agree, but I want them to understand what I'm saying. Nothing takes me off more if somebody won't listen to me. Okay, because it just fires me up. At least listen to what the hell I got to say, you know, take things. So I just wanna put that in there, it's on both sides. So that, but the fact that you listened, the fact that you come back and rephrase and re say it. And what I hear you saying is those kinds of things are extremely powerful. - Yup, and we all have bad days with us. I mean, we, I mean, let's be honest, you're having a conversation. And in some days you do a great job of not using you. And you talk about I, and you say, this is why this is why I do the things that I do. This is why I'm, you know, feeling this way. And so you're really, you know taking your own responsibility. And other days you do a crappy job of this. You put somebody else on the defense and you know you really take them off. And so you end up having to go back and apologize for, you know I know I didn't do a very good job at communicating today. So this is not a, you know, you get a gold star every day. This is something you have to work at all the time. - May I share an opinion? Oh, sorry. - Yeah, go ahead, Florencia. - So I was thinking about my own experience. And I think from my experience that some people just like talking better than other people. And so that's one thing but also practice makes perfect, right? Especially for younger families. I think if the sooner you start just having those honest conversations, even if they don't mean anything at the point those will create the practice that farther down the road you will really be able to have the more important conversations and feel comfortable with them. - Yeah, that's a good point Florencia. It also makes me think of another situation where you've got oftentimes younger people won't share what they should you know, 'cause they're afraid that it'll bother mom and dad or make mom and dad mad. They realize mom and dad hold the keys. You know, they make the decisions and they just don't wanna upset them. Mom and dad can perceive that as the younger generation really not being that interested in the farm and interested in making decisions. And so really, you know cultivating that type of, you know, open communication to where people are talking is it's important in this process. And if you've went for 50 years without communicating well today's the day to start talking about it. So that's just the way it works. - Never too late. - Yup, yup. And so, yeah, just taking responsibility for yourself, you know because you don't know how the other person's feeling. So using I messages of, you know, what's you're thinking about this, why you do the things that you do trying to stay away from the accusatory. I mentioned a little bit about this just a second ago, generational differences. You know there's oftentimes there's three generations working on a farm. This is a very often and each generation grew up in a different era and they had different values and they're, you know they're just look at things differently. And so if we're gonna have communication, everybody has to step up and be a part of that. The older generation, you know, a lot of times older generation will feel like communication is maybe doing better than it is because they've, I don't know. They're just, just seems to be the case sometimes in younger generation, be a little more critical and say but we didn't really talk about anything at that meeting, but it was a good meeting. So, you know, just recognize that the younger generation really needs to kind of know what's going on. They really need some substance to that. Not just that it was a nice meeting, but that things actually got communicated, problems got identified you know, that we're working towards the succession plan. We're making progress. Just make sure that those things are covered. - I think sometimes a senior generation may be afraid of what the younger generation really thinks in terms of it may not be the same goals, the same aspirations. And so they're afraid to find that out sometimes. - Yup, yup. You know, these are things that I've heard. I haven't heard all of these on farms, but these are some of the things that, you know, the, you know you should have did this or why didn't you do that? Or there's a lot of these are all things they might reconsider saying. And I had a colleague from state to the West of here that once said to me that she was counseling a younger generation to actually write down questions, you know, so they'd come into the meeting and maybe they have to read from it. I mean, if they've never asked those tough questions mom and dad, maybe, maybe it is a good thing to write it down and say, okay, am I asking this the right way in a way that's not gonna bother them and then read it, you know? And you know start that communication process happening. So I encourage you to think about that. These are just openers, you know trying to think about ways to do a better job at communicating, being attentive, inviting responses, summarize what you believe the other person said ask and clarify. - What do you think? - Yeah, what do you think about this? Yeah that's been- - The vision and then listen. - Extremely powerful, a couple of words there, you know because you know, yeah. You've heard what dad or mom you have to say. And then having them say that to the next generation, what do you think? That's extremely powerful to get them involved in that management decision. So, and that's what I want to transition into in our last few minutes here is to just talk a little bit about, you know, where this is one of those things that we're communicating, maybe the content but it's also how we do the job. And this is the main problem with waiting until you're you know, 70, 80 to transfer the farm. Probably at that time, you should be transferring it to the grandkids right, Roger? - Yup, you are right. - Yup, but what you've lost what we oftentimes lose is this opportunity to mentor the next generation in leadership and management. And that's a lot about what we just talked about. Good communication, but it's taken the time to do that. And it's, I would say it's as, or more important than the physical assets, obviously, if the next generation is gonna have an opportunity to farm they have to have enough physical assets there. So I'm not belittling that, but I'm saying, boy you're not doing them any favor giving them all those assets and none of the the skills to be successful in the job. Or even just ensuring as Roger pointed out in the last session that they want the job, what do they wanna be a successor of the farm? So, but this all requires time. And so you wanna do it when you've got the time to spend with the next generation. In management, you know, this I like this graph. This is one that Roger's shared a lot of times, shared with me. There's a lot of dimensions to management, right? And it's all those dimensions have an area on the farm that they deal with. And so you think about what you're really turning over to that next generation is not just a set of keys. It's not the tractor in the field, it's all this stuff that goes with it. You know, how are they gonna do at managing the personnel and the marketing of the crops and the information. Boy, we live in an information era now that being able to manage that data and understand it and be able to make decisions from that and the production stuff and the finance. And then if it's multiple heirs that are taking over the farm, you know, is there an opportunity for each one of them to take one or two of these areas and be successful on the farm? So I wanted to talk about the complexity of that and just encourage you then to share, you know if you're the senior generation think about, you know these are the things that, that younger generation is going to need to build some skills in. And if you're the younger generation that's maybe a list of questions that you need to build off from and say, okay, boy if I'm gonna be running this farm in the future I probably should know something about bookkeeping and income tax management. And how do I analyze whether the business is profitable or not, and heading in the right direction? Wait, how do you ask for a loan? Dad or mom, you know, how did you do that? You know, when you bought this piece of land? Learning those skills, enterprise analysis, capital acquisitions, and boy, we've learned a lot about government programs over the last year, haven't we? And how they change on a daily basis sometimes. And boy that, you know, that decision-making and be a part of that decision making is huge for that next generation. This is one that I think a lot of times farms more easily give up. It's the personnel management say, Hey you can take over the employees. And so at least we're giving them some experience but oftentimes we just want them to do the training and the communicating part, right? But are they also learning the bookkeeping? You know, how to effectively hire them, how to build the structure, evaluation? How do we communicate with landlords? No, Roger does some of that, right? So that's a skill. - Communication is very critical. - Yeah. - And I think that sometimes, I'm getting some feedback. I don't know why is that, but if you are the senior generation and you are not doing a great job at communicating with your kids, you shouldn't expect that they did a great job at communicating with the employees. So you have to lead by example. - Excellent point, yep. - I think it's also important to say as the senior generation here, you know, as I know I don't do as good a job as what I should in this particular area. Do you think you could do better, from a positive standpoint not from a negative standpoint? - Yeah. - I know that's a weakness in our business here. You know, maybe the workers are younger you know, they're not this 20, 30 year difference in age that you're maybe from the owner versus the workers. And so maybe they can connect better for whatever reasons, you know, but the chain of command can also come with that as well. And so don't come to the senior generation with the problems. If the younger generation is the one responsible for the employees, that's who they go to to get their direction and their guidance and their feedback and those kinds of things. - Right, and what an opportunity to review if the senior junior are working together on this to say, okay if you're gonna take this over, encourage him to, you know what training could they take to become better in this area while they have you there to back stop them, you know, and contribute labor to keep the operation going. So they need time to grow, you know, within the business. - And it's not just the, for the younger generation. I think the senior generation, the calls and fences and all that kind of marketing jargon and terminology and so forth, you know, it's okay to say I'm not the best at this. I think we can do better. That's a weakness that we've had. And so I think that's appropriate from the senior generation that had that kind of open decision. That I'm not the one that knows all the stuff. I know this important area. - Yeah, good point. Good point, Roger. Information, I mentioned earlier, you know, boy, the amount of information we're dealing with today in the decisions to be made off from that and to what information is important to track, all that's a huge area as well that, you know transferring that knowledge again, learning from the next generation too, this is a two way street. - Especially in this area. - Yeah, it's becoming more in the more that way Roger. - I know. - In the last year we call this the fun era, right Roger? Because what's more fun than getting out on my farm, all tractor and knit all shoving things around and doing some work. So, but you know, there's a whole lot behind this too about how we make crop rotation decisions, how we decide whether it makes sense to store that crop or sell it and what tools we're gonna use. All become important parts of this to be able to transfer that area management onto the next generation. And that's where we're gonna conclude for this hour unless Roger wants to take over, but take off. But I think we're at we're at about 40 minutes. You probably can take some questions see what questions we got and, and then just go to the next hour when we hit two o'clock. So what do you think Roger? - Well, I'm flexible either way. I've got a couple of goals. See if there are any questions. - Okay. - We've got a relatively small group. And so we can answer some questions, I think. - Yeah. - I don't think we got any questions. Yeah, at this point. - Feel free to communicate those questions with us. - So I think I'll start a couple of slides if that's okay. - Start us up, sure, you can do that. - Okay, so I'm gonna go to here. I'm gonna share screen two. I think this is what I want. I'm gonna share and is it coming? - Yep. - I don't see it yet. - I see you're in a PowerPoint slide deck right now. - Oh, it is? Okay, so I just gotta go to the big anyway. - Oh, okay. There is that better? Here we go, okay. - Perfect. - Okay so, it's all good. So this slide, we'll get a headstart. We won't go straight through reading like that of course. But I do wanna get into this and and Stan thank you for a very excellent job. You do a really nice job in explaining some of those things and so forth. So I appreciate your expertise and your patience. And you're not, you know, with that. One of the things that we can sometimes talk about is asset transfer. When we get involved with multiple family members and where maybe we need to have some type of unequal but equitable asset transfer. So I'm gonna go through these methods and then maybe get through this part here, before we go into the next session. So of course you can use some gifts, various items to the areas to help them get started in farming, use of machinery and other assets. This is done a lot in terms of helping another younger generation get started. We can do some sales at bargain prices half price. That's a good deal type thing, or we all can do that as parents. We can use fair wages, which we often don't do and then use these to buy assets from the parents to make that work just depends on the ends. And if some binds of the financial agreements, this becomes important. And as buy, sell agreements with exact sale terms they might be options to buy us and a specific price that's different than a first right of refusal, obviously but you got the right to buy the ground. You got the right to buy the machinery from the seller or from me at a bargain price. The wills, trusts, LLC agreements are all different tools that can be used to help facilitate some of these kinds of things. Life insurance on the parents, maybe the farming son or daughter buys a life insurance policy. So they've got some cash and we buy out some of the other heirs. That's one of the problems is that a lot of times there's so much assets tied up with the farm and the farm assets that there's, if they have more than one child, what's fair, what's equitable. Sometimes we have to kind of make some adjustments there to create some cash for that. It gets expensive depending upon the, what the cost is. I guess I just talked about this and the loan by the heirs and get the, from parents to the insurance. 'Cause the kids, a younger generation doesn't have the money to buy the insurance on mom and dad. And then use that money out the non farming heirs. Life insurance by the parents with the non-farming heirs as the beneficiaries. So they get kind of a life insurance policy. The kids get the farming heirs get the farming assets and they inherit those assets. Parents will, it's kind of a last resort, makes a fare distribution. Maybe the farming heir has received earlier compensation. That may have been the machinery was given to them or a soft sale on those things, got to use them for a long time. Non-farming heirs inherit non-farm assets or remote locations of farms. So we've talked about one and two pretty extensively, providing opportunity with a lot of the things we talked about, the income tax implications. And I know Stan talked about this and in good detail the adequate training experiences, you know, the younger generation has or is developing those needed management skills as part of this opportunity so that they can be successful. They have some self-serving control of their future but wants to know what their future is like. The example that Stan talked about I think involved that person that didn't have a car didn't know what the future was gonna be. It wasn't certain they had young children. And so what's it look for them, you know those kinds of things. And there's transferring of management and ownership is absolutely critical in this whole process. Of course, there, there may be different perceptions of what that farm looks like. It's a fruit operation up in wherever city area. I think it is. And the younger generation I'm tired of pushing and trying to squeeze every penny we can out of that. I'm more interested in working with people, maybe a tourist type place a value added where people will come and experience being on the farm, those types of things. That's a whole different perspective and what the business plan those kinds of things would look like. Florencia, keep me on time. What more time do we have here? - I actually was just gonna ask you to finish that topic and wrap it up. - Okay, very good. I'll do this one slide and we'll stop, okay? So I guess that's my point here. It's just that there's different perspectives from different, the senior generation versus junior generation, what their future looks like. And you have to put all these pieces together and one way we can do that is through good communication. So I think I'll stop there. Florencia, I'll turn it back over to you. Thank you. - Thank you, Roger. And thank you Stan. There was one question coming in that said is there a minimum bargain price for land? You mentioned half price. - Good question, you can do whatever you wanna do. There are no laws. There are no rules. What you can transfer land and assets for. My one of my other slides. I may have skipped it because of our our time, but you can transfer assets at any price you wanna do. Okay, you can do anything you want to do with terms of the price, in terms of the terms and so forth. It's completely up to you. The issue becomes is that you then have to jump through the proper hoops, okay? And so if it's a bargain sale, there may have been a gift involved. And if there's a gift involved, you got jump through the gifting tax and the gifting rules and so forth. And I don't know if you're in the prior session or not but I may try to make it very, very clear that a married couple can transfer a $23.4 million worth of stuff either during their lifetime or a combination at their, through their estate of their deaths, without any incurred income gift taxes or estate taxes, that number is huge. And so there's, you can do whatever you wanna do for a practical standpoint and easily have a hundred million hours. If you want to give away a hundred million hours, you can do it. But then since you already exclusion of miles are you gonna ask them, do you have tax to pay? Because you're way above the $22 million number. So for most folks that I work with those are way numbers are so much bigger. We don't have to worry about those kinds of things. I hope that helps. There's tax implications and step up in basis issues. When it comes to the estate versus going as a direct sale. But you know how long you want to wanna wait to own some ground and if you may need to have, and those kinds of things. - I just shared our final slides here. But if you have any more questions, please type them into the Q and A box or comments, anything. And while we wait to see if there are any more questions I would like to ask Rogers, Stan, first, thank you very much for all you've shared but would you like to make any closing comments? - We'll finish up with our the third session which starts at two o'clock I think. We will talk about examples and specific strategies to help facilitate some of the goals that we've talked about so far.